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01/29/2019

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Veglia

There is no GOAT discussion happening any time soon because neither Rafa or Nole made us feel like Roger did in his prime time.

We can talk BOAT, best results of all time, best stats, etc. But Roger Federer is the GOAT of tennis.

Gary Moser

If The Big 3 end their careers with 20 Slams apiece, I'd give it to the guy who came in 3rd in the H2H.

[ i.e. - "he got 20 DESPITE coming in 3rd, while the other two got "only" 20 having the ADVANTAGE OF coming in 1st or 2nd in the H2H ]

Andy

Gary - Interesting argument, but I suppose the counter-argument is that Fed benefitted from the (comparitively) "weak" era in 2003-2007, which of course very much helped him get his 20. I personally think there is also a "weak era" benefitting Novak now that should be raised more by fans and the media, but that argument will never get as much steam as the weak era argument against Fed because of the presence of the Big 3 (as GOAT candidates) in the current era, even though one of them is aging and one is very old.

Huge Fed fan, but I have to give credit to Rafa and Novak for doing what they have done ALREADY to impinge on Fed's GOAT status (in my opinion). Frankly, I have trouble saying Fed is "greater" anymore.

On the other hand, as someone who has argued for years that Fed is the GOAT, I am very familar with the pro-Fed arguments (particularly vis-a-vis Rafa). That includes points about the "strong era" and how Fed has actually done not badly there (considering his aging in particular), particualrly vis-a-vis Rafa. Aside from the nice H2H run in (mainly) 2017, even in the strong era, he leads 3-1 in terms of AO titles and 3-1 in terms of Wimbledon titles since their famous 2008 Wimbledon match. Also 2-0 at YECs I believe. Sure, Rafa has a huge lead at the FO and a 3-1 lead at the USO, but that's not a bad "strong era" performance by Fed actually.

Anyway, comparing Fed with Novak/Rafa is an inherently difficult comparison due to the age difference in particular. This is really clear in the Novak-Fed H2H, where Novak has benefitted from playing over 50% of his matches against a post-30 Fed, and I believe close to 75% of his matches against a post-28 Fed. Is that an excuse? Maybe. A poor excuse? Maybe. But no matter what it is, it is hard not to wonder what the H2H would have been had Novak played a larger percentage of their matches against a younger (pre-28) Fed.

So, while I have trouble saying Fed is "greater" anymore, I still would do so if you put a gun to my head and forced me to name the GOAT. Please don't do that though.

Veglia

I've argued many times before but will do it one more time. Looking only at results and stats you will never, ever be able to say who's the GOAT. Hence, that's not how it's done. GOAT debate is about art, not science. Die hard insiders still argue who it is in boxing world or basketball world, but ask someone who's actually not following sports. You will get Jordan and Ali. 9 out of 10 times. In tennis it's Uncle Roger. I say that even though most of planeteers know I'm a Novak fan. But being a fan is one thing, observing reality is another. For the time being Federer is the GOAT.

Gary Moser

Forget "G" and "B"...let's take a crack at "L", shall we?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/rob-parker-tom-brady-loat-031910704.html

Gary Moser

"I personally think there is also a "weak era" benefitting Novak now that should be raised more by fans and the media"
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I can't do anything about THE MEDIA, but allow me to launch the FANS part:

In the last 9 Slams played, The Big 2 have each taken down 3...as has some age-35-and-up guy.

Since the Djokovic Era began in earnest in 2011, there have been only 7 Slams won by players other than the Big 3:

Murray with 3 --- a guy Federer owns 5-1 in Slam competition [ 14-11 overall ].

Wawrinka with 3 --- a guy Federer owns 6-1 in Slam competition [ 21-3 overall ].

Cilic with 1 --- a guy Federer owns 4-1 in Slam competition [ 9-1 overall ].

What can I say? I'm underwhelmed.

Veglia

All 3 have had careers long enough that luck only played some part. In my view Federer was lucky to have amassed enough slams beating the likes of Hewitt, Nalbandian, Blake, Roddick, Ljubicic. But he's also lucky to be the most talented human being ever.

Gary Moser

"In my view Federer was lucky to have amassed enough slams beating the likes of Hewitt, Nalbandian, Blake, Roddick, Ljubicic."
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You need to fire your researcher: :->

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/fedex-head-2-head/--vs--/F324/L360

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