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02/21/2019

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Alpha

Umm, small correction. He said, "Numbers can't be the only criterion. Certainly it speaks volumes". To me, that means numbers are not the only thing NOT that they are not the way to compare. Nobody will disagree with numbers NOT being the only criteria. But the answer is not "how they made you feel". I liked Justine Henin's game much more than Serena Or Steffi. But she's not even in the GOAT conversation. Similarly, Edberg made me feel much better than Rafa does.

The quality of any sport improves over time. See athletic records. So, it should be no surprise if Novak takes it to a different level than Federer did. Different generations.

Alpha

As the Nadalistas are no fond of H2H, here's something interesting.

Rafa last beat Novak on a HC at the US Open in 2013. Since then he has gone 3-4 on clay and 0-9 off clay.
Rafa last beat Roger on a HC at the AO in 2014. Since then he has gone 0-5.

In short, it's been 5 years since he has beaten either Novak or Rafa on any surface other than clay and gone 0-13. One could understand it is these 5 years were from age 16-21 or 33-38 but is Rafa's case it was from age 27, prime years.

Does this not eliminate him from any GOAT conversation?


Andy

No, because H2H is only one of many factors. In the last 2 years, after a tough close loss to Fed at the 2017 AO, Rafa has 2 FO titles, 1 USO title, 1 AO final loss to fellow GOAT contender Novak and 1 close Wimbledon SF loss to fellow GOAT contender Novak. All at 31 and over. He is not my cup of green tea but he is very much in the conversation in my opinion.

Having said that, I like Novak's case better than Rafa's, and for the time being anyway, I would choose Roger over Novak if you put a gun to my head and forced me to make a choice.

Gary Moser

"In the last 2 years, after a tough close loss to Fed at the 2017 AO, Rafa has 2 FO titles, 1 USO title,
1 AO final loss to fellow GOAT contender Novak and 1 close Wimbledon SF loss to fellow GOAT contender Novak.
All at 31 and over."
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Good summation, Andy.

[ Just to be clear..."All at 31 and over" applies to "after a tough close loss to Fed at the 2017 AO", where he was still 30. ]

Alpha

Oh. this was just to poke the Nadalistas who (used to) think that h2h was the most important thing.

Interesting though that Nadal is 0-13 versus Novak and Roger in the last five years off clay. May not matter, but interesting.

Veglia

I do not consider Little Rafa a GOAT contender. No way. Zero WTF is a showstopper.

Gary Moser

So...before this current era, did you have Laver and Agassi as the only GOAT contenders?

O

What are Djokovic's best matches? AO12? W18? He has quite a few, I guess? For Federer it's AO17? What about Rafa? FO18?

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